Valarie Kaur

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH, HOST:

My next guest is Guthrie Graves-Fitzsimmons. He is senior director of policy and advocacy at Interfaith Alliance, and he is the one who came up with the idea for The Vote is Sacred Bus Tour that Interfaith Alliance is putting on, starting in Omaha, Nebraska on October 28th. And I am happy to have Guthrie with us to talk about this.

Guthrie, welcome back to The State of Belief.

GUTHRIE GRAVES-FITZSIMMONS:

Thanks, Paul. Excited to be back, and very excited to travel across the country with you at this critical time for our democracy.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

This is really, really exciting. I want to start with the name of the bus tour, which is The Vote Is Sacred, and that's going to be in big letters across the side of our bus. And it's going to be a sign to everyone who sees the bus and everywhere we go, what we're about. And just let's talk a little bit about that phrase and what that means in American democracy.

GUTHRIE GRAVES-FITZSIMMONS:

Sure. And we're taking this phrase from the late, great Congressman John Lewis, and really trying to show how diverse religious communities are all getting out the vote and are engaged in democracy, that we cannot take our right to vote lightly. It is not something that is a given. Democracy is something we fought for, and it's something that we truly cherish across our many different religious traditions.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Yeah, it's so important. And it's also important right now when so many people are experiencing voter intimidation, suppression, that you can't take away our right to vote. It's a sacred right. And it's almost a religious freedom. And so we're bringing that. Talk a little bit about the schedule as it stands, and where we're starting and where we're finishing and what you expect. I mean, we don't know what's going to happen because it's just about to launch. But we're super excited. Talk about where we're starting, and some of the stops along the way.

GUTHRIE GRAVES-FITZSIMMONS:

I'm very excited that we're starting in Omaha, Nebraska. Omaha is going to play a critical role in the election this year. There's a lot of efforts to get out the vote there, both in regards to the presidential election but also control of the Senate. A lot is happening in Omaha, and we're going to be at a very special place in Omaha called the Tri-Faith Initiative. And I've been there to this beautiful campus where there is a mosque, a synagogue, and a church, all co-located on the same campus with actual physical bridges. We talk a lot about in interfaith work, about building bridges. Well, there are physical bridges at Tri-Faith that link the different campuses together. And I've been there working with these communities, and it's an amazing physical manifestation of religious pluralism in our country. And so I couldn't be more thrilled to kick off the tour in Omaha. We then head to Des Moines, Iowa, where we'll be at the state capitol with our Interfaith Alliance of Iowa, and then on to Madison, where we're also being near the state Capitol there.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Go big Red!

GUTHRIE GRAVES-FITZSIMMONS:

I know that's your hometown, Paul. So excited to be there.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

We are coming out strong. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Madison. It's going to be fun, because we're also going to the campus. And for those of you who aren't familiar with Madison, Madison is both the home of the University of Wisconsin, very big, very big university. And then it's also the Capitol. So we'll be on both sides of State Street, as they say, in Madison, and at the campus in the morning, and then on on the Capitol in the noontime. So very excited about our time in Madison.

GUTHRIE GRAVES-FITZSIMMONS:

And then we wrap up on Election Day in Philadelphia, where we'll have a 10 a.m. to 2 p.m. block party. It's going to be a festive atmosphere, celebrating the end of the bus tour, but also celebrating everyone getting out to vote in Philadelphia. So from Omaha to Philly, we're going to be working with diverse religious communities and bringing this idea of the vote Is sacred to life.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Yeah, it's so important. And one of the ideas behind this is that there is a Christian nationalist, far right, extremist religious movement that is really trying to take over government and use government to implement its policies. And we've seen that in Project 2025 and other things. But really, the story of religion and democracy is best celebrated by the Civil Rights Movement and also the mainstream vision of America, which includes people of all different religious beliefs and other kinds of beliefs, including secular and humanist and all kinds of things, working together to create a democracy where everyone counts, where we the people are able to decide for ourselves how to live. And so it's really important for all of people, wherever you live, to show up and to to show up as your full selves in this moment in our democracy.

GUTHRIE GRAVES-FITZSIMMONS:

Definitely. And I'm really glad you named the presence of people who don't want anything to do with religion.

Also, I was talking about the tour with a colleague who works for American Atheists, and she was very excited about the tour too; that when we talk about religious freedom for all, we mean any different religious group and also people that are not religious, that we are all equal under the law and that we all have access to the ballot.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

And that no one has the right to tell anybody else what to do. You know, I mean, you know, based on one idea of religion for all of us, it's like a it's a complete, you know, kind of. Forsaking the idea of of how religion should function and is meant to function as outlined in the First Amendment. So, so what we're doing is getting out there and encouraging local communities. And we're really you know, I think it's important, like one of the guiding principles is that we didn't want to come in there and like take anything away from anybody. We actually just want to lift up local communities and what they're doing and everyone we're talking to.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

It's so impressive what's happening around the the country, with different religious communities doing get out the votes. We're going to be involved most likely in a souls to the polls move. I think one of the things that people are always like, what can I do? What can I do? And I think it's about showing up as best you can in whatever way you can right now. Right now we're kind of in the last week of this election, but but then it's going to go on. I mean things are going to go on. The work is not going to end. But how do you show up as your best self, showing up and taking care of yourself and especially showing up for our democracy right now?

GUTHRIE GRAVES-FITZSIMMONS:

Amen. And I have my ballot right here. I'm about to vote myself. I got my mail-in ballot, and I think it's showing up and checking on your neighbors, checking on people that go to your house of worship. Have you voted yet? Have you received your ballot? What is your voting plan? Asking people to be concrete about how they plan to cast their ballots. So it's making sure that it's not just you and your vote that matters, which it does, but it's also your role in encouraging everyone to exercise their right.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

It's so important. And I have to say, it is a joyful thing to be able to vote. I voted mail-in just yesterday, and as I was filling out my ballot, my two kids were watching me. And it's a way to teach civic engagement to other people.

So if people want to follow us on the tour, go to InterfaithAlliance.Org. You'll be able to click through and to get get updates. And we’re also on social media. So Interfaith Alliance is on social media. You can find us there. But before I let you go, you had an experience that I think is really great, is that you went out and actually, as part of a religious leadership looking at polling places and talking about polling security. Can you say just a little bit about that? Because there's an effort to sow doubt about our ability to have this election in a fair way, and it's just so important that religion, that we help folks realize that, actually, there's an important way that our elections are safeguarded. So say a little bit about your experience there.

GUTHRIE GRAVES-FITZSIMMONS:

Sure. Last week I was invited by Protect Democracy, which is one of our partners working in the election integrity and security space, to actually go out and see a demonstration of what they call logic and accuracy testing of the voting machines.

So we watched the actual officials that run the election. This was in Montgomery County, Maryland, test the machines, you know, cast a vote, see if they recorded it correctly, and then resetting the machine to zero and taping it up to be sent to the polling location. And that's a process they do for every voting machine. And yet this time it was a public demonstration and it was bipartisan. People representing the local Republican Party were there, faith leaders. Everyone was invited to - the media as well - with their taping it. Everyone's invited to see firsthand how our elections run on a very technical level, so that then we can go out and sow trust. There are a lot of people sowing distrust and doubt in our elections, but you have an opportunity to sow trust and show people how these elections are safe and secure.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Thank you so much. Guthrie Graves-Fitzsimmons is senior director of policy and advocacy at Interfaith Alliance. Guthrie, myself and other members of the Interfaith Alliance team will be hitting the road starting October 28th in Omaha, Nebraska.

We're calling it The Vote is Sacred Tour, and I will have updates from the road, including conversations with folks we meet along the way next week on The State of Belief, so you won't want to miss that.

Guthrie, thank you so much for all of your work, and thank you for being on The State of Belief.

GUTHRIE GRAVES-FITZSIMMONS:

Thank you, Paul.

...

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH, HOST:

Valerie Kaur is a filmmaker, a public speaker, an activist and educator, and a spiritual woman who is just such a powerful person. Her books include See No Stranger: A Memoir and Manifesto of Revolutionary Love. And Valerie, I want to be sure to congratulate you on the release of your latest book, Sage Warrior: Wake to Oneness, Practice Pleasure, Choose Courage, Become Victory. Oh my God. Last month this this dropped. So welcome back to The State of Belief, and I'm just so excited to talk to you.

VALARIE KAUR:

Thank you brother, I'm always overjoyed to be with you.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

So I literally, right now I'm looking at you on the bus. You are on the bus and you have a crew behind you, and you're on this beautiful bus and it looks like it's a sunny day. are you calling in from?

VALARIE KAUR:

We are driving through the South right now. We just did our gathering in Charlotte, North Carolina, and we are on the way to Atlanta tonight.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Amazing. Okay, so so you have been on the Revolutionary Love Tour. I think we all want to join that tour. Please. We need so much love in this moment. How long have you been on this tour and and what has it been like to be out there?

VALARIE KAUR:

Oh, we have been on this bus for six weeks, and it has been an experience of a lifetime. Truly. So The Rvolutionary Love bus tour, crossing the country, 40+ cities, all across the United States during this election season. We started in early September. Everywhere we go, we're gathering people to ignite love and courageous action in a time when the world feels like it's on fire. And every night, Paul, we are building a world of love and liberation, and inviting people to feel like what the whole world could feel like, and take it and spread it from there.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

That’s just so beautiful. You know, in these moments when we feel a lot of us feel so much fear and a lot of us don't know what to do, and we tend to react. And what you're doing is actually engaging and envisioning the world. And that's so attractive. It's life-giving. And I just think that that's such a wonderful way to kind of flip it - that we don't have to be fighting back, fighting back, fighting back. This is: we're casting a vision. Come join us. I think it's just so important.

So where did you start? Like, this is six weeks. I have to say, we are all about all different ways of looking and being and shapes and sizes and ages and genders. But you and your crew look like you just got on the bus yesterday. You look amazing, guys.

VALARIE KAUR:

Well, you know why Paul? We are practicing the thing, on the bus, that we're giving to people. This this bus is a practice space for the world as it could be. We found out “beloved community” is not the absence of conflict. It's showing up with wonder for each other and caring for each other and struggling with each other, with love. So every day we're asking ourselves like, what are we celebrating? What are our needs? How do we lift each other up? We've had deep conversations on this bus. We've had some electrifying dance parties and singing on this… We were all just singing a moment ago before I hopped on with you.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

What's the line, “If I can't dance in your revolution, I don't want to be a part of it”? That makes total sense. So, why did you feel like you wanted to get on the bus in this moment?

VALARIE KAUR:

The world feels like it's on fire. And I know that some days are so deadly I can taste the ash in my mouth. And I had to go deeper. I had to ask, how did my ancestors survive seemingly apocalyptic times? I went on a journey the last few years that took me all the way to Punjab, India, and back, where I surfaced the stories and the music and the wisdom of my Sikh ancestors - the ancestors of my faith tradition. And what I held in my hands was medicine that I thought the whole world needs right now. The Sikh tradition calls us to be sant sipahi - sage warriors. The warrior fights; the sage loves. It is an ancient doorway into revolutionary love.

And in times of greatest need, you know what they did? They gathered together. They took out their musical instruments. They sang their song prayers. They told stories that ignited courage in each other. And they made a plan.

So I thought, this is what we need now. This is what we need in this country in 2024. And so that's what we've been doing every night, gathering people together in music and story and song, and then equipping them with tools to be able to take courageous action in their lives, rooted in love.

It's been very important where we've gathered, so we started this bus tour on the other coast, in California. We started in Los Angeles, at the very spot that Japanese-Americans were forced to board buses to their imprisonment 80 years ago. We parked this bus, and we boarded a bus of love and liberation. And we took that bus down into the into the the deserts of Arizona. We gathered at the border wall in Nogales.

We gathered at the Tohono O'odham Reservation in Arizona. We made our way up through the farmlands of California. We traveled through the Great Plains into the Midwest. We went from George Floyd Memorial Square in Minneapolis, straight to Oak Creek, Wisconsin, where my people survived a massacre at a gurdwara. And everywhere we went, we were reclaiming these spaces where so much violence and trauma have taken place, as spaces to remember and to reimagine the world.

In Detroit, we gathered at Grace Lee Boggs’ home - and for me, as an Asian-American woman, activists who knew that Black liberation was key to our collective liberation, she modeled for me what it means to live in deep solidarity. She's the one who called us to become pioneers of a new way of being human. And so to be able to gather in her space and think, she lived to be 100 years old. How do we last that long? You know, I want to grow old. I want to grow old with you, Paul. How do we last that long?

We make love our compass.

So we went on all the way to the East Coast, to DC and Philly. And now we're in the South. It's our last week of the our fall tour. People are begging us to be back on the road in the spring, but for this route, we'll be ending in New Orleans on October 27th. There are still shows left. Gather with us.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

It's. Oh yeah, what is the best website for people to know where you're going, but also maybe support you?

VALARIE KAUR:

Revolutionarylove.org/tour. That's where you can find our stops. That's where you can send us donations to give us fuel to keep doing this work, to go across the country. That's where you can find the movement.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

I love it, I love it. So you've been going to these places, and I think people are very hungry, thirsty, to hear your wisdom and learn. But also you must be hearing things on the ground, especially in this time. This election season is so fraught and so difficult. What are you hearing on the ground that maybe has been hard, or maybe you've been hearing, also, things that give you hope. What are you hearing on the ground from people who are really living in this time?

VALARIE KAUR:

We are all heartbroken. We are all carrying grief that we might not be showing people in our lives around us. We are all hungry for love and connection. We are all aching for a world of belonging. We are tired of a culture that makes us choose sides when we want to stand on the side of humanity. We want to feel connected. We want to feel permission to feel joy. We want to be together. We want to be together as human beings.

And I keep thinking, if everyone could hear the stories that I hear after every gathering, every face who comes to me looks so different from the next face. And yet everyone is is aching for the same thing. Love is our birthright. And I keep thinking if everyone could see what I see, the world would change overnight. We would see each other.

And so every night when we gather, it's really special. The people in the previous cities write the people in the next city a love letter about when an act of love changed everything for them. And so when you arrive, you open up your love letter; and by the end of the night, you write your story about when an act of love changed everything for you, and you pass it on to the next city. And so we are creating this historical archive of stories of revolutionary love that we can hold up to the country to say, this is actually who we are as a people, and this is who we can be as a people, if we put this into the zeitgeist.

When we gather people, we tell them that this is not a four-year campaign. This is a 40-year vision to shift culture and consciousness in this country; to invite people into a new way of being, a new way of seeing. Revolutionary Love is leaving no one outside of our circle of care. And once we ignite that within each other, we unleash enormous power. That's what this tour is doing. That's what this movement is doing. And we're not going to stop.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Oh, I love it. And my guess is that those letters, if they're able to be anonymous, those would be an amazing collection, either online or in a book or something like that. It just seems like we don't hear enough of those stories. And right now, we're coming to the close of the election and it is a really hard time. A lot of us are very fearful, but it's also a time to remember that we've we faced tough times before; and no matter who wins, we will continue to have tough times -  and also the possibility of beautiful times. And you're you're creating those opportunities right now.

Is there any special message you want to leave our listeners with as they are going through this moment just like all of us are?

VALARIE KAUR:

The future is dark. What if this is not only the darkness of the tomb? What if it is the darkness of the womb? What if the story of America is one long labor, a series of expansions and contractions, and this is our turn in the cycle. The final stage in birthing labor is the most joyous, and dangerous. It feels like dying. Yet it is the stage that precedes the birth of the new. I believe that we are living through our greatest transition, and it will unfold in the course of our lifetime. And our only sacred task is to show up every day and play our part in the labor.

To dream of a country that is a true multiracial democracy, the nation still waiting to be born, where I see your child as mine and you see mine as yours.

To dream of a world where human beings have learned how to live sustainably with the planet and with each other. Hold fast to those visions. Hold fast to what we are laboring for, even if we don't live to see it in our lifetime. We know that we will have played our role for the next generation, and that what they will inherit from this era will not be our trauma or our fear, but our courage born of joy.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

The Revolutionary Love Tour is in its sixth week in its journey across the country. You have just heard how amazing it is. Valerie Kaur's latest book is titled Sage Warrior: Wake to Oneness, Practice Pleasure, Choose Courage, Become Victory.

You are embodying that vision with all that you're doing, and it's so great to be with you. Thank you so much for taking time out on this bus tour to be with us here on The State of Belief.

VALARIE KAUR:

Thank you. I love you, brother. I'll see you out there.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

I thank you so much. I love you too, Valarie. Thank you.

...

REV. PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH, HOST:

Historian, author, and filmmaker Kristin Du Mez was with us a few weeks ago to talk about her important new film, For Our Daughters: Stories of Abuse, Betrayal, and Resistance in the Evangelical Church. Kristin is also one of the featured participants in the Faith and Democracy Tour, sponsored by The Convocation Unscripted. She was joined by Jemar Tisby, Diana Butler Bass, and Robby Jones of the Public Religion Research Institute. I'm so grateful she agreed to join us again to give us some highlights from this important tour.

So, Kristin, welcome back to The State of Belief. I've been watching all the wonderful things you've been doing. I want to talk about the film, but let's first talk about the reason you and these three other wonderful individuals, all of whom have been on The State of Belief, all of whom I admire so much, decided you wanted to take your show on the road in this important moment. So talk about the Faith and Democracy Tour, and some of what you've been saying, and also some of what you've been hearing.

KRISTIN DU MEZ:

You know, we have found such support in connecting with other folks, each other, and folks like you. And we have the privilege of, when we're active in that space, connecting with other folks who see what we see and who know what we know, and who are committed to protecting democracy in this perilous moment. And we sensed a need, around the country, for people of faith to connect into these networks, to educate folks, but also to empower them, to inspire them, that there is something that they can do; and to equip them.

Because right now, there are so many forces from various Christian nationalist spaces that are coming at people through Christian media, sometimes in their own churches, that are undermining our commitment to democracy. And we wanted to make a positive case, a positive theological case, for defending democracy in this moment.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

I love it. And it's one thing when one of us goes out and gives a talk; it's another thing when you have a cross-section of folks and you are all Christians, but you represent different parts of the Christian community and you have different experiences. And so I think the fact that you four are out there in communication, in conversation with one another - that feels really valuable to me.

Now, you were in Arizona recently, weren't you? Can you give us some flavor of what it means when you show up in in Arizona, which is just, it seems, like one of those places where so much is coming at people all the time because of the election, but then also day to day with the way that our democracy is being framed by so many people. What did it feel like to show up in that community?

KRISTIN DU MEZ:

It was amazing. It really was. And I should add that it's not just the four of us scholars hitting the road. We've got a team of musicians with us, and that really changes everything. So we had Taylor Leonard, Tommy Simms, we had Fernando Ortega out in Arizona, and out in North Carolina we had a couple of others on the road with us. And so we are having fun and we are digging deep Into our faith and really grounding ourselves; and then addressing this political moment in light of this deep faith connection.

So when we got to Arizona, it was just a beautiful experience from start to finish. People were hungry for that connection. they were hungry for an understanding of exactly what they're up against. I think a lot of people, whether you live in a swing state or not, you're getting these vibes. You're getting this sense of, oh, there's a lot going on right now.

But for those of us kind of on the front lines of analyzing the political and the historical landscape, we can bring a little clarity of, yes, you're right to feel unsettled right now. Let us tell you. Let us show you. Let's talk about some of these numbers. Let's talk about the history that we know, and why some of us who work in these areas are so concerned right now. But then let's empower you all to know that there is something that you can do in moments like this.

Throughout history, if you look at the history of the 20th century, it can be a small group of devoted people who change the course of history, a small group of courageous people. If you look at the Civil Rights Movement, if you look at those who stood up to fascism in the past… And anybody can join that; ordinary people can step up and join that, and play a part.

And that's what we really want to embolden people to do. This is not a time for cynicism, certainly not a time to give up or to feel hopeless. It's a time to cut through all of the muddiness out there, all of the messages coming through, and just focus. This is who you are. This is what we believe, and this is what you can do.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

I love that, and I just want to underscore the music element of it. I mean, if you listen to people who were there in the Civil Rights Movement, it was never without music; like, music was a part of it, you know? And to recognize how important music is in this moment as something that lifts us up, that empowers us, that also has important meaning in the songs we sing.

And you just released this really amazing film, and I want to urge everybody - I've sent this link to so many people, For Our Daughters: Stories of Abuse, Betrayal, and Resistance in the Evangelical Church. It's on YouTube and it's absolutely free. It was meant to be seen. Talk to me about the reception of this, because when we last talked a few weeks ago, it was literally the day, I think, that it was about to be released. And, you know, when you're putting something into the world, it's very scary. What has it been like to put this important… And I will say, just so people know, it's not a three hour film. This is a pretty concentrated 30 minutes. It's 30 minutes, so that you could really get the eye and you get it like it's concentrated for 30 minutes. You get it. But what has it been like to put that out into the world, and what is the reception?

KRISTIN DU MEZ:

It has been incredible, really. In the first few weeks it's been seen by over a quarter million people. And yeah, it's just out on YouTube. We put it there so anybody can access it, any woman inside any space can access this. It's made to share. It's made to watch in community, 30 minutes. So you can watch it and then talk about it with your friends after. And the response has been overwhelmingly positive. And I have heard from so many survivors themselves just saying: thank you. Thank you for this. Like, now I can communicate what happened to me. I have a tool I can show people. And I'm surprised how little pushback we've gotten, because it is framed in terms of Christian nationalism and in terms of, these are the very same guys who are advancing this Christian nationalist agenda nationwide right now. And I've been surprised how many people see that and get that.

So just out in Arizona, in between the Faith and Democracy events, we had a screening for For Our Daughters, a beautiful event at Caleb Campbell's church, and a number of women, local women, appeared on a panel, survivors, some of whom shared their story of sex abuse, church abuse for the first time, publicly, ever. There are so many stories out there, and I think this film is now a vehicle to empower more women to speak into their own communities, which is exactly what we had hoped for.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Well, it's such an important offering. And feeling like other people have shared your experience makes us all stronger. Like, I'm not alone. I think, in all of this, the enemy of democracy and the enemy of community is isolation and the sense that you have nowhere to turn. And the antidote is actually finding solidarity and finding community, and finding support and ways to support one another.

You know, one of the themes within the movie is this kind of abuse that, in some ways, gets away with it scot free; and people standing up and said, yeah, I did it. And then people clapping for them and it's like, wait, this is so weird. Anyway, I just want people to know that this is very much connected. Like, I think for you, it it's all of a piece. You're working so hard right now. I just want to acknowledge how hard Kristin Du Mez is working right now. And I hope that somehow you're going to have a vacation soon. I know it's impossible to imagine, but you deserve a vacation. We're all sending you just great vibes, and certainly feelings of gratitude.

You know, we're coming up on the very end of this election. And it's honestly been so hard. And so people are really there in it. And then you add layers of abuse and people being ripped apart from their families because of Christian nationalism and all of this. So do you have a sense of, like, you know what, what role we can play in one another's lives that is supportive over these last weeks; and then even looking forward to, if it's a Harris victory or if it's a Trump victory, there's going to be a lot of work to do and just repairing ourselves.

KRISTIN DU MEZ:

I've been kind of looking ahead for months, years now, honestly, to November 5th. November 5th. I give it all I've got. Just get the word out, make sure people are informed, that people know what is happening right now, historical perspective, and give people all the information that they need, and the inspiration.

And then I have come to realize that, of course, this doesn't end on November 5th. The election probably won't even be decided on November 5th. November 6th even. And so what we really need to do is dig deep, whatever happens, in early November, whoever wins, whatever happens in the aftermath, we are in this for the long haul, and we need to build that resilience. And Jemar Tisby is on the road with us, too. And he is such a powerful voice, reminding us that we can look to other models, here: we can look to the Black Church, we can look to the Civil Rights Movement. And, you know, for those of us White Christians in this fight, it's easy to get discouraged. It's easy to, honestly, want to put in our time and then go take our vacation that we deserved. That is not how social change works, and that is not what we are called to do here.

So, honestly, rather than digging deeper and then saying, I'm out of this game, we're committing to digging deep for whatever lies ahead, and building that community that is going to be so important, for whatever lies ahead, including some of these worst-case scenarios. That is when the Church can really shine. That is when people of all faiths can dig deep into their traditions, and that is when we need to borrow courage from each other.

And that's what I find when I'm working in these spaces. There is joy in the work. Yes, there's fear, but there's also, because of that fear, we can dig deep - and that's true courage. And I need to be around people who are doing the same. And I need to remind myself of those in history who have done the same. And I think that's what this moment calls for. We have to look to November 5th. We have to look beyond November 5th, and we have to steel ourselves for whatever lies ahead. And we can only do that by borrowing strength and courage from each other.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Historian Kristin Du Mez is author of Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation. Her new documentary film is titled For Our Daughters: Stories of Abuse, Betrayal, and Resistance in the Evangelical Church, and is available for streaming free at forourdaughtersfilm.com.

Kristin, thank you so much for being with us again on The State of Belief, and I really wish so many blessings on all of your work.

KRISTIN DU MEZ:

Thank you. Blessings to you as well. It was great to be with you again.

...

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH, HOST:

Rev. Doug Pagitt is an author, pastor, and social activist who heads up the organization Vote Common Good. This fall, the organization's bus is rolling nationwide with an overt mandate to confront Christian nationalism. It's a big job, but if anyone is up for it, it's Doug Pagitt. So, Doug, welcome back to the State of Belief.

DOUG PAGITT:

Always an honor, and good to be on again.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Listen, Doug, you have been just leading the charge on making sure that people are aware of what Christian nationalism is, how it plays out in our democracy, and the language of Vote Common Good. And so, tell me how how this is being received as you go into communities across the country.

DOUG PAGITT:

You know, we travel around and we hold these seminars on Christian nationalism. And we have a bus that says, “Confronting Christian nationalism.” One of the things you run into so often is people misunderstanding what we mean by Christian nationalism being a problem. A lot of people think that we are trying to say that Christians shouldn't be public, or that Christians are not welcome in our nation.

That's how a lot of folks take any confronting of Christian nationalism. So we spend a lot of time helping people understand that we don't mean that Christians shouldn't be public. We mean that the government should not give special privilege to or receive its mandate from, or feel that it's acting on behalf of, Christianity in its governmental work at the federal level, at the state level, at the county level. And once we have people understanding that true threat of Christian nationalism and what the intention of Christian nationalists are, which is to have the government do their bidding just to have the government give them special privilege, and to tell people that the government actually receives its own governmental authority from Christianity - then people tend to come around and see, Yeah, I think Christian nationalism would be a problem.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

It's so important that you're doing that work because people are like, well, wait, I'm a faithful patriot. That's the opposite of Christian nationalist. You know, loving your country and loving your faith is is not what we mean by Christian nationalism.

We mean Christian nationalism being, the government being taken over by a small segment of Christianity to enforce a certain understanding of what Christianity is on the entire population, which is the opposite of what it means to be a Christian, one, and the opposite of what it means to live in the American democracy which was formed explicitly not to do that. So it's such important work. Just list a couple of the cities and communities that you've been to, like, go, just rapid fire. Give me ten that you've been to, because you've been doing this for a while. What are ten communities that you've been to just so that our listeners have a sense of where you've been over the last couple of months?

DOUG PAGITT:

We've done these events in Wisconsin, in Green Bay, in Milwaukee, and Eau Claire. We've done these events in Michigan, in Grand Rapids, Grand Haven, Holland. We've done these events in Ohio, Granville, Ohio. Columbus, Ohio. Cincinnati, Ohio. We've done these events in Pennsylvania, in Pittsburgh and in Philadelphia. We did them in Atlanta. We've done them in Los Angeles. We've done them in Nashville. We've done them in Arizona. We did a New Mexico.

All that in the last three weeks. To be clear, all of that in the last three weeks, we have been okay.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

I don't think there's frequent driving miles, but if there were, you guys would have it racked up.

DOUG PAGITT:

I think our carbon footprint might not be our greatest asset at this point.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

But you can repent of that. You can repent of that in the future. Part of what you're doing is sharing a vision and explaining Christian nationalism, the threat of Christian nationalism. You're also listening. And I'm really curious: when you're in there in dialogue, what are some of the stories that you're hearing on the ground in these places, and many of which are really big battlegrounds? So the election is almost crushing in on these places. What are you hearing?

DOUG PAGITT:

I'll tell you some stories that we heard when we were in Arizona - and we were in the places of Arizona that really matter for the election and where Christian nationalism is actually a real hotbed. You know, one of the things that we've noticed is that Christian nationalism is not evenly distributed around the country. It exists, like a lot of other industries, in certain places more than others. And Arizona, and specifically Phoenix, is one of those one of those places that some of the people that were at our trainings have been a part of churches that have been taken over by Christian nationalists - and almost always taken over by Christian nationalists at the leadership level, because Christian nationalism is a top-down movement, it's not a grassroots movement.

So these people have had their churches taken over, and they felt the real pain of exclusion - because as you brought up earlier, Christian nationalism is arguing not for religious freedom, but for a certain expression of Christian nationalism to receive benefit from the government in order to accomplish its unique purposes through the government and around the world. So people feel a lot of impact of what happens when Christian nationalism is alive and well, and they are removed from their own churches.

Then we did an event in Southern California for school board members, for people, a part of a school board hub. Actually, it's called the Public School Defenders Hub. These are teachers, administrators, superintendents who have seen their school boards in Southern California, a place that a lot of us think of as very progressive - it's also a real hotbed for Christian nationalism - and they're taking over school boards. They're at a rapid rate. So you see teachers now feeling that they don't have the freedom to express their role as a teacher, and librarians, and the things that we hear about in the news.

So we're meeting people who are actually experiencing the exclusion that comes through this. So whether it's a public school teacher or it's somebody attending their church or a pastor of a church now having to leave when another pastor comes in, is on the staff, and moves in this direction. So over and over, we've never seen a time where, when Christian nationalism is alive and well, inclusion is extended. We've only heard stories of when people have felt this, or in Michigan, in West Michigan, when whole county commissions were taken over in Ottawa County by Christian nationalist group called the Ottawa Impact. It's always more exclusivist, it's always more limiting, and people are always less free.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

That is so clear. And it shows these places where Christian nationalists thrive. I was just in in Colorado Springs and, you know, I was giving a talk there and they had to have armed guards; and it's like, wait, in what community are Christian militias so prevalent that people are scared just to talk about their faith.

And and I think the other thing that you're mentioning that people are traumatized by this, librarians and teachers and people from their churches, they're so sad. They're so grieving. I mean, almost unexpected part of a tour like this that you're dealing with people who are actually traumatized by this challenge. And so it's just important to realize, like, Christian nationalism is not a victimless crime. This is happening, and people are getting hurt. But at the same time, what do you see as far as democracy in action? How have you seen people beginning to respond, and especially in the contours and in the context of this election cycle? I mean, we're at the closing. What are you seeing as far as diverse faith traditions, Christians as well as non-Christians, coming together and recognizing we have to stand up for our democracy in this moment?

DOUG PAGITT:

Yeah, Paul, here's the thing we've realized, is that Christian nationalism and the argument that America should be a Christian nation and people will work hard to make it so - that's been part of our narrative from before our founding of this nation. So here's the thing. We're going to have Christian nationalist elements in this nation, and they're Americans too. So we have to recognize that we're going to have a world where Christian nationalists are going to express their opinion. They're going to try to lead. They're going to try to take over the areas of culture that they think they should have influence on. So we're not in a situation where this is like a one time problem that's going to pass. It might come back over and over like a seasonal flu, but it's with us, and we have to figure out how we have a democracy by which we're going to have Christian nationalists. We've had Christian nationalist presidents; most recently, four years ago, in Donald Trump. We're going to have heads of the House of Representatives that are Christian nationalists like we do now and we have had before.

So we have to be in a bigger project than simply dealing with this current outbreak of Christian nationalism in America. We really do have to find a way for democracy to be the counterbalance to Christian nationalists, recognizing that they're our neighbors, they're in our churches, they're in our schools, they're coworkers. They could be in our families. Like in my situation, people I deeply love and are a part of my family are Christian nationalists. So we have to have a more sophisticated and, frankly, a more democratic way of evolving our democracy, where we know Christian nationalism will continue to haunt us as a force in this nation.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Yeah. And last question, how do you feel, as you go from place to place and seeing, because right now we're in the middle of it, the election is about to happen. How do you see Christian nationalism? And even let me flip it. What is Vote Common Good. I mean, we've been talking about the Christian nationalism part of your slogan. Actually, you lead with a positive: Vote Common Good. What does that look like right now as we're closing in; what does vote common good look like?

DOUG PAGITT:

When we travel in these buses - we have two of them, right now we're just about to roll up into Duluth, Georgia, where we're going to do a shared event with the Harris campaign announcing more than a thousand interfaith leaders who've signed on to endorse Kamala Harris. We're going to announce that today, we hold rallies with candidates. We do Christian nationalism, confronting training events. We have three documentary films that we travel with about immigration, Christian nationalism, and the impact of abortion laws changing. So we're doing a lot of things trying to impact voters in the decisions they're making, trying to help people who would reflexively vote Republican know that they have another choice, because people don't know that their habit of voting for Republicans now is actually having them voting for Christian nationalism in a way that they didn't even recognize, because so many people don't even know this stuff is going on.

They don't understand it, and their habitual pattern of voting is actually bringing about something that they never even imagined. So that's all the kind of training we do. We do on the ground work with voters who are in all of these states. We’re in Georgia today; we go to Ohio tomorrow, then Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, for the next few weeks, because we think that making sure that Donald Trump never again has access to the power of the presidency is a really important thing we can do as a democratic act; to be sure that Christian nationalists are welcome members of the United States, because we are a diverse community with diverse ideas. But that doesn't mean that every idea should have the power of the presidency or the power of elected office.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

I appreciate that so much. And if people want to support you, or if people want to find out where you're going next, how do they get in touch with you?

DOUG PAGITT:

Votecommongood.com is our website that has all of our information, where we're going to be over the next 15, 14 days now. I never know if we get to count Election Day as a day that we're working. So 14 or 15 days. It's Tuesday, two weeks from today. They can find it all there. And then on social media, it's all those things involving the words “vote common good” and some version of that. And we'd love to have people join us. And if they're looking to come out and do some things, a lot of times people they don't know what to do, frankly. and so we want to invite them to join us if they'd like to.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Rev. Doug Pagitt is executive director of Vote Common Good. And he's on the road with the Vote Common Good Confronting Christian nationalism bus tour. Doug, I don't think you'll mind if I said, God bless you and God bless all of the work that you're doing.

DOUG PAGITT:

I’ll take all the God blesses you've got. Thanks so much, buddy. Thank you.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

All right. Thanks so much.