The Freedom to Read is an Essential Human - and Religious - Right!

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

Rabba Rori Picker Neiss is a faith leader, an activist, and senior vice Ppresident for community relations at the Jewish Council for Public Affairs. She's also a parent and knows firsthand the devastating effects that censorship and book bans can have, particularly on vulnerable populations that often get erased in the process. And so I'm grateful to have Rori back with us today on The State of Belief. Welcome, welcome, welcome.

RORI PICKER NEISS:

Thanks so much for having me.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

So talk to me about how the Jewish Council for Public Affairs - which is a major national organization that works on important issues that affect the Jewish community, but also the wider community - how did book bans and censorship become part of what you felt was really important to speak out against and actually get active in working to oppose?

RORI PICKER NEISS:

One of the major areas that JCPA is working on is the intersection of combating hate and defending democracy, knowing that the only way that any of us are safe is when all of us are safe, and that the ways in which hatred against any community is being spread ultimately undermines our democratic processes. And the undermining of our democratic processes leads to more hatred and more vulnerability of communities.

And we can see that maybe most clearly with book bans and censorship. The ways in which the core of any democratic society is education. And anytime there's efforts to erase any story or any community, that inherently makes that community more in danger. We can talk about that from the Jewish community perspective, but it's true of every community. And the efforts right now, particularly to ban books in libraries and in schools, are being done in the name of protecting our children, and yet we're seeing again and again that the books that are being pulled from shelves, it's not about not being age appropriate, they're specifically books that are being written by people of color, they're books that are being written by and represent families that are queer, whether it's families that have two dads, families that have somebody who's trans, any books that are talking about these identities that right now are under attack in our society at large.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

I love the way you talked about that, and working against hate and protecting our democracy. Those are two things that always have to be together. And I just love that the JCPA is really, really focusing in that way.

One of the other pieces that you didn't mention but which is also completely true here is that books that feature Jewish characters or are written by Jewish authors as well as Muslim characters and Muslim authors or Sikh characters - these are books that are often taken off the shelves because they somehow make people uncomfortable. And so it's also faith communities are at risk here, too.

One of the frames that Interfaith Alliance has worked on for years is: how does religious liberty, religious freedom really work for everyone? That isn't just an excuse for bigotry. And I think it's important that we also mention - and you've been really open on this show - that you have a transgender son. And so, books that allow your son to feel seen, allow your son to feel a part of the story of a local community, the story of the America that is today, the story of the world, those are life-saving, life-giving stories. And so, This is also deeply personal, isn't it?

RORI PICKER NEISS:

It is on every single level that you just said. Anytime people are uncomfortable with a book because it doesn't reflect them, then it's a silencing of anyone who is different. And fundamentally, we're all different. And that's the beauty that we have in this country. That's the ethos that I think both of our organizations are working off of, that's the strength that we can really bring.

And so we have absolutely seen that books about the Holocaust have been pulled out of libraries and off of shelves, which is especially terrifying when we know that so much of the ways in which the Holocaust was enabled and began was with the burning of books. And so we can keep on unpacking it for every one of these things, but that's what literature does. Literature opens you up to ideas that are outside of your experience. And that's what we need right now, at a time where people are turning insular or where we have people who are invested in sowing fear and distrust.

The notion that you could get into somebody else's family dinner through a book, or you can walk the streets in someone else's body through a book, is so incredibly powerful. And that's why it scares people. That's exactly why. And so let's not be shy about saying that the people who are invested in taking these books off of the shelves have a very specific agenda. They don't want kids to know that there are identities that are different. They don't want people to know that there are people who change their gender. They don't want people to know that you can be a moral, loving person of faith who does not have a Christian faith. All of these are things that there are people invested in quashing.

And so we need to be actively speaking about it and fighting against it. Because if our kids aren't learning how to do this at the youngest ages, and if we're not giving them access to the widest world possible, then we're only limiting the experiences that they could have. And we're making it so that our society can't be the welcoming, beautiful, rich society that we know it is.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

It's stunting the imagination. It's stifling the opportunity for empathy, it's  very harmful. And as you know, a family with two dads like for my kids just to come across a book casually that has two dads, they don't need to say, look, this is the best way to be. I'm so glad that now everybody's going to just have two dads or two moms or whatever. There's no agenda behind it, aside from normalizing it, you know what I mean? It's another story. It does not attack anybody else's story. It just allows people to be open to the fact that there's lots of different ways to live.

I love the way you're framing because it's an opportunity for beauty, for engagement, for creativity, for love. And that's, I think, one of the things that's so important for religious communities to show up in this moment. It's not just that we oppose censorship and we oppose book bans, but we actually celebrate reading. We celebrate literature. We celebrate the opportunity to learn and grow and be with one another in all of our differences.

RORI PICKER NEISS:

That's exactly it. And I think you said it so well. And I think we need to keep on emphasizing the point that it's that normalization that is exactly what scares the people who are leading these efforts. They don't want their kids to live in a world in which you can have two dads. And that should terrify all of us, because if people get to decide what world their kids get to live in, they can decide that's a world without two dads. It also can be a world without Muslim people, or a world without Jewish people, or a world without, fill in the blank, of whatever idea it is that's just different. And that's why it's a fundamental element of undermining democracy, because if the goal is to create a country in which we only have one idea, that is fundamentally undemocratic.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

It's fundamentally undemocratic. And you know, honestly, it's a Christian nationalist playbook. This idea that there's one way to be and there's one religion, one way. It's very dangerous.

You're coming from a position as a rabba and someone who's really been trained in the Jewish faith tradition. Is there anything you can point to within the Jewish tradition that can give us courage or empower us in this moment? I mean, there's a lot. There's so many great stories. And again, we're all about stories. So is there anything that you all are turning to specifically in this effort that says, that's why this is a Jewish issue?

RORI PICKER NEISS:

You know, what I keep coming back to is not a specific story, but actually an entire corpus: which is that when the oral tradition was being developed at the turn of the millennium, and the oral tradition ultimately gets written down in the second century in the form of the Mishnah, and then later in the fifth century in the form of the Gemara. But when it gets written down, when somebody realized that the community was in danger of being lost, and so they had to write down a tradition that had never been written down, they wrote down this huge, huge corpus of wisdom; but then there's supplemental texts in which there's what made it into the book, and then they wrote all the things that didn't make it into the book.

So just because there was a winning opinion, and even the book itself includes a multitude of debates and opinions, there's still also the supplemental texts of: here are all the things that we still don't want to lose, even though it didn't ultimately make it into the book. We need to preserve ideas. Ideas are their currency, their richness, their power, they're who we are and they're the foundation that we stand on. And when we start cutting them out, we lose everything of who we are.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

Oh my God. I don't know if that qualifies as devout Torah, but it was certainly a beautiful teaching. That is so good. I have never heard a frame like that. I feel like, God, that's great. And so what we're really talking about is the book that was official is the Torah, right? And then there's the surrounding opinions that didn't make it in. What are they called?

RORI PICKER NEISS:

So the core text that we're talking about is the Talmud, which is what we'd call the oral Torah. So we have the written Torah and then we have the oral Torah, which is now also written down. So the Talmud. So we're talking about the Talmud, which is really the whole basis of Rabbanic Judaism that modern Judaism is based on, just centuries and centuries of debate and learning.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

And what was the addition? I mean, because there's all this surrounding text that people also study, which I think is so great, which is like, and on the other side of the issue… I mean, it helps us keep memory of the live arguments, debates. It's really important. Is there a name for that?

RORI PICKER NEISS:

So the specific text I was talking about is the Tosefta, which is the addendum to the Mishnah; but there's centuries of that in which it keeps on getting preserved, in which ideas continue to be written down even when they're not the prevailing view. People who, as they're writing their own ideas, quote from the people that they're disagreeing with. And what it says to us, also, is that an idea that is different from your own, it's not dangerous. What it actually does is it might help you fine-tune your own views. Seeing a life that's different from mine might help me to reaffirm who I am - not because I disrespect that other life, but because it gives me a frame of reference to know who I am, internally, for me. And so we're not scared of those. We should never be scared of those. We should use those to strengthen ourselves.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

I love this and that's such a strong argument as we think about this National Day of Action against book bans and against censorship. This idea that all information can be good and that we shouldn't lose it. We shouldn't be censoring it just because it may not work for us in this moment. It doesn't mean that it won't have value, and it does not have to be dangerous to us. And I just think that that's such a great rallying cry for this moment.

Last question. What would you recommend that local synagogues do to show up for their local libraries, librarians, school libraries? What are tangible ways that religious leaders and religious communities can make sure that the local library doesn't feel totally under siege?

RORI PICKER NEISS:

There's so much that can be done right now. It's hard to know because it's different in every community, but people should be reaching out to your local libraries. to your school libraries, ask them first and foremost what they need. In some states, there's legislation that's happening statewide that we need people speaking out against, but these are also things that are coming up, potentially, at city councils or county councils.

Sometimes there's smaller library boards. Many of these are positions that are either elected or appointed by elected officials, but most of us aren't paying attention to. Find out how your library is run. Find out when their meetings are. Show up at the meetings. make sure that your voice is being heard. Same for school libraries. This is being decided at the school board level, and so go to the school boards, speak to people. If you have the time, run for the school board or the library board. We need good people who are doing this, and we need people who are speaking out.

The other thing I will say, though, is that some of these books that are being pulled are not being pulled because people are being told to, but because of the fear; because there's so much rhetoric around this and people are proactively pulling books off the shelves because they don't want to get the angry phone call from a parent or they don't want to then get potentially penalized by the school board later. And so we need loud voices who are also on the other side.

And so find out if books have been pulled from libraries and ask the librarians for them. Make sure that there are people who are saying, we value these books, we want these books, we want to support these books, but I will say librarians are probably on the front lines of this fight. Ask your librarian what you can do and show them some love, because they are getting beaten down in this, and they could use all the support they could get.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

Rabba Rori Picker Neiss is senior vice president for community relations at Jewish Council for Public Affairs. She's also clearly an effective leader fighting book bans and censorship, which far too often target already marginalized groups in our country.

Rori, thank you so much for being with us once again on The State of Belief. I value your wisdom so much.

RORI PICKER NEISS: 

Thank you, and so great to talk to you, as always.

...

REV. PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

And now to my first guest, Qiana Johnson, Associate Dean of Libraries for Collections and Content Strategies at Dartmouth. She has first-hand knowledge of the impact book bans and censorship can have on the public's right to read, with a long history of work as a librarian. She's also the spark, the human spark, that got the Episcopal Church to make a resolution condemning censorship.

Qiana, welcome to The State of Belief.

QIANA JOHNSON:

Thank you so much for having me.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

My goodness, I have had the pleasure of meeting you at various times with the American Library Association, the Unite Against Book Bans meetings. We've just, over the last year, we've had a chance to be in the same rooms, and I have been so moved by the way you talk about your work as a librarian; and also, the effect that censorship and this coordinated attack on our libraries and librarians has had on our nation, really.

And so maybe you can just talk a little bit about, to start with, your own history. Why did you decide to be a librarian? What was the internal thing that said, you know what? I want to help people learn. I want to help share knowledge. I want to make it accessible. Tell me, what was the decision to become a librarian?

QIANA JOHNSON:

It was a circuitous route that did not need to be as circuitous as it was. I did my undergraduate. I was a pre-med English major. I thought I was going to be a doctor, and realized that that wasn't my path and tried a number of different things. And then I remembered as a four-year-old, my grandmother taking me to the library - and loving it, and telling her at four years old, you know what, when I grow up, I'm going to be a librarian. And I realized I should have just listened to four-year-old me because she was much smarter than 20-something-year-old me, and I got back to where I wanted to be.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

Isn't that wonderful, you know, and that your grandmother introduced you at four? I mean, I think that that's such a powerful story of, this is a place for you. And I think that that's a powerful statement for a grandmother to make to her granddaughter: This is a place for you.

QIANA JOHNSON:

Yeah. And it's where I spent all of my childhood. My grandmother would take me to the library every week. I would be amazed at all the books that I had access to. I had my own card and I was able to check things out. And that continued on through elementary school. My very first non-paid job was a shelver at my elementary school library. And I got the job because I could read books while pretending to shelve. I didn't shelve nearly as much as I should have because I was too busy reading. And then on through high school, I was a little nerdy and the cafeteria was a hard place to be. So I spent my lunch hour in the library. So I really should have seen all the signs ,and I just ignored them for way too long.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

But I just think it's such a great story. And we hear this again and again: libraries are a place of discovery and also sanctuary, where you really can feel free to pursue who you are rather than what all these other forces are trying to tell you you are. You get to really explore it through ideas, through storytelling. I mean, it's just amazing. I just think it's so important, which really sets up this moment for us, because I don't remember this in my, you know, I'm 60 now, I don't remember ever a moment… And I know there was always like censored books, but it felt a little quaint. Oh, no, they're censoring Harry Potter. It didn't ever feel as real as right now, where there is just an attack on libraries and librarians, these spaces that for you were so important, almost sacred spaces where you could pursue.

I just think it's really an important issue for Americans to really be thinking about. And I want to say, I've been in rooms with you where people are really getting emotional about the impact that these attacks have had on them. And so I think this is not a victimless crime. These are attacks that are landing and really hurting people. So when was the first time you became aware of this censorship that was really gaining traction in American life?

QIANA JOHNSON:

I'm really active with the American Library Association. And I was on a committee, and just through committee conversations, folks were talking about, oh, there has been an increase in the number of book challenges I'm seeing in my community. I'm also seeing this in my community. And it was one of those things of: it just felt odd. Because like you mentioned, you'd hear folks wanting to ban Harry Potter. And it was, oh, okay, book challenges were always happening. But it was just kind of a one-off sort of thing. We have systems and structures to talk to our communities about the materials that they might want to have a conversation with.

But it became wholesale, like it was just an onslaught of these. And I think that that's part of what was intended to happen, is that the system is overwhelmed. When you have one book challenge or two book challenges, you can navigate that. When it becomes a hundred, you're frozen. There was a difficulty in even contemplating how do I address this, where do I go for help, what systems are available for me to be able to navigate this.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

Can you remember the year when that started to be clear? Because I'm not clear about the timeline. I'm aware of when I became aware of it, but sometimes there's a lag between awareness of what's happening. And then all of a sudden it becomes part of the conversation. But was this two years ago, three years ago, or more?

QIANA JOHNSON:

I think probably around 2020 is when It markedly increased. And from that 2020, just year over year, the marked increase of 160% year over year of the number of book challenges.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

Wow. Wow. Yeah. I think that that tracks. I probably became aware of it around 2022. I went down to southwest Florida to speak. And when I got down there, the lead story was like 400 books pulled from shelves. It was a shock. I mean, how is that not shocking to people? It's just terrible.

It's also true that there's almost a personal attack on librarians. It's not like, let's have a discussion about what kind… These are not done in the way of, we want a serious conversation about making sure that we have access or that we have concerns. It's like all of a sudden people were using terms like “groomer” or terrible terms about librarians. I mean, those are terrible terms to be directed at anybody, but that somehow librarians were nefarious, were trying to do something to our… It's always the children. Do something to the children. And these are librarians who spent their whole life trying to make information accessible to you - people like you, Qiana, when you were four. I mean, that's where this also feels a little bit different.

QIANA JOHNSON:

Yeah, because it becomes personal attack. And particularly if you're working in a community, you're part of that community, people see you at the grocery store - you are suddenly othered in your community. You're the person who's introducing this nefarious content to corrupt our children. And the issue is, invariably, the voices who are making the most noise aren't necessarily the majority voices; but the majority voices are quiet and you're not supported. You feel that your community has just turned you loose to folks who don't support you, and that you're being attacked and that there's no one who believes in the work that you're doing and the value that you're bringing to your community.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

Okay, so listeners, I want to make sure that you heard that, that librarians feel like in the moment of attack, they don't feel, necessarily, like they know if the majority is with them. And I just think that that's really an important call to all of us. I really feel like this is so important, that we recognize that we have to show up. We have to reach out. This is happening, and it's happening in your community. It's happening in Manhattan. This is not something that's in a far-off land. This is happening all over America.

And so all of us, if you haven't reached out to your local librarian, if you haven't reached out to your local library and say, hey, how can I support you? This is the moment to do that, because librarians really do need the support of diverse communities to show up and say, actually, we support our library.

I want to get into this, I want to especially kind of lift you up and commend you for your work, because here's the ugly truth about a lot of this: that a lot of book bans and a lot of attacks on librarians are done under the mantle, under the cover of religion: of using religion, weaponizing religion, to say, oh, I'm protecting my children because these people are trying to, you know, whatever, whatever, and it's against my religion. And therefore, my religion gets to trump everybody else's religion and everybody else's needs. Because of my narrow religion, I get to raise up and have this righteous flag.

And I think what many of us who are religious, and who are from diverse religious communities, we've been a little bit flat-footed in this and not recognized what was going on, but I think we're waking up. And one of the reasons and one of the great things I want to celebrate today is Librarian Qiana Johnson, who actually said, you know what, I have feet in a few different communities. And you have rallied your religious community to really show up in this way. So maybe you can tell us that story, because my guess is that there was a lot of frustration and you were like, well, what resources do I have, and how can I mobilize those resources? So tell us the story about how you began to imagine your religious community joining in this fight.

QIANA JOHNSON:

Yeah, and it's one of those things where, as a librarian, seeing the book challenges, professionally, I was frustrated by it and trying to work within my profession for how do I support my fellow librarians through this. But then the conversation of, well, I'm doing this as a part of my faith community, that this is against my religious beliefs. And that's when I, to be perfectly frank, got a little furious. This is not the faith that I hold. This is not the faith that many people hold. We value the diversity of our communities. We value the rich diversity that we have and that we should highlight.

And so it was one of these moments of: I can do the work with my librarian colleagues, but I also needed the faith communities to know that, hey, things are happening under your name, and are you comfortable with this? And part of it was just letting people know that this was happening, because when you're a librarian, you're immersed in this. This is, sadly, your everyday, so I can't not know it. But there are many people who, for very valid reasons, didn't know it, and so it was the figuring out who I could talk to to raise this.

And I'm an Episcopalian and I hang out in Episcopalian spaces. And so I would just mention this in passing to folks and they're like, oh yeah, that's really unfortunate, but that's not really a church thing. And I'm like, parts of the human story are being weaponized, and parts of the human story are being denigrated, and parts of that human story and our beauty is being hidden. And part of the community is being told that they aren't truly part of the community, that they are dangerous parts of the community. And that is a church issue. And so figuring out, how do I get other people in my community to care about that? How do I get people to understand that stories are sacred, and hearing other people's stories… Our entire faith community is based on stories. Not all of them are fun. Not all of them are shiny and happy. We learn from things that are sometimes challenging, but we have to do that.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

I think this is so important. And, you know, if you want to get me furious, the idea that the religious community will say, oh, well, that's not a church issue. Well, then what is a church issue? Really, what is a church issue? How many plates we're going to have to serve the Eucharist? How do you want to restrict?

And for me, of course, working at Interfaith Alliance and working with religion and democracy, this is a religious freedom issue as salient as any religious freedom issue out there. Because what book bannings do is they restrict what is allowed to be part of the beautiful, large, and expanding canon of what stories matter. And that includes sacred stories. And as you say, some sacred stories are uncomfortable and they're not all super sweet. And we're going to ban those because they don't make us feel warm and fuzzy?

So, just keep going with that story. What was the mechanism by which you decided, okay, this is the avenue I'm going to take in order to further this conversation and introduce this conversation into my faith tradition?

QIANA JOHNSON:

Again, I'm a librarian. It's where I have to work. And so within the library sphere, there is Unite Against Book Bans, which is kind of a grassroots advocacy organization to help, number one, raise people's awareness that this is happening in their community and give people the tools and mechanisms for how to work against that. And folks can sign on as individuals, but organizations can also sign on.

And I was like, okay, let me send a letter to the Union of Black Episcopalians to say, hey, these book bans and challenges are happening. And the other pernicious part of these book challenges is that at least 47% of them are for materials that are by and about the LGBTQ community and the BIPOC community. That's a problem. it's very targeted, whose stories are being weaponized and whose stories are being restricted. And so I wanted to elevate that to my community.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

This is a really important fact. This is a fact, that people of color and LGBTQ people are being targeted, specifically. And so especially for a group like the Black Episcopalians - It's not only them, your group, but this is a reality and it affects all of us, but it does particularly affect communities.

QIANA JOHNSON:

Exactly. And it's one of those human beings bringing it to a community where it's impacting them, but also that they'll care about others. And so I wrote a letter, and it's one of these moments of kind of use the tools that you have at access. As I mentioned, I'm an Episcopalian, so I was able to say as an Episcopalian, this is why I think this is an important issue.

Also, titles are sometimes handy. In addition to being a librarian, and I'm also an ordained deacon in the Episcopal Church, so I can put a “reverend” in front of my name. And so, you know, where that's helpful, bring out those titles.

And so sending that letter and just letting people know that this is a thing that's happening in all of our communities, and that there's a way that they can become active and learn a little bit more. And they agreed with that, and signed on to be an organizational partner for Unite Against Book Bans.

And then with that, wanting to learn a little bit more, because again, most of this is happening under the radar for people. They don't know about it. And so becoming an organizational member was an opportunity for me to come and meet with their board to talk about this, to provide the terrifying numbers of the amount of book challenges and the increase in the amount of materials that people are trying to restrict. And then again, the content of what those materials are, whose stories people are trying to restrict.

And once there is that level-setting of the, oh, this is a thing that's happening - let's do something about it. And so book challenges are frequently happening in local communities. And so how do we show up for our local communities? How do we show up for our local libraries? But again, there is always that nagging question of, is this a church issue? And is this the place where the Church should have a voice and should stand up?

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

Let me just interject. The people who are not asking that, they're not wondering if this is an appropriate way for the church are the people who are levying the book bans. They're like, oh, yeah, we're going to - even though they have no sanction, they they want to use religion any way they can. You know, they're just like in in brute power and weaponizing faith. And so it's very frustrating that this long thought process has to be like, is this a church issue? That's not something that the people who are trying to ban books are thinking about.

QIANA JOHNSON:

Exactly, yeah. I'm a librarian, I like to educate folks. And so part of the education is letting people know that this is an issue. And in addition to knowing that it's an issue, then to talk about why it is a church issue. There's a constant, frequent conversation about becoming “beloved community,” about being inclusive and recognizing the diversity of creation and all of us in it. When parts of our community are excluded, that's a faith issue - we can have conversations and they can be challenging, but we should not be actively trying to exclude parts of the whole.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

I love that you're referencing the beloved community. I think this goes back to Howard Thurman, perhaps; certainly Dr. King used that language of what it means to be part of the beloved community, which is one way of thinking about Jesus talking about the kingdom of God on earth as in heaven, and what does it mean to really fulfill that mandate in a way that really is inclusive and that everyone is part of that beloved community? It’s just a very moving, moving goal. A very heartfull goal.

QIANA JOHNSON:

Yeah. And so with that, figuring out a way that I could get this to the larger Church and elevate this to them. And so timing being a beautiful thing, The General Convention was coming up, which is an every-three-year governing body for the Episcopal Church, where various policies are set, resolutions about particular issues are put forward.

And so I'm like, could we write a resolution about opposing censorship and opposing book challenges? And so with that meeting, that opening meeting I had with the Union of Black Episcopalians, floating the idea of is there a possibility for writing a resolution? And so as folks were doing the rest of their businessy meetings, I'm in my hotel, you know, on my laptop writing things up.

And so we had a first draft at that end of that meeting. And so bringing it to the larger community of the Union of Black Episcopalians through so many meetings and Zoom meetings and emails to, again, number one, introduce the idea and the fact that these challenges are happening in our communities, and our faith is being weaponized in ways that perhaps we don't agree with. And if we don't agree with it, we have to say that. And so elevating that to people and then introducing the many, many drafts of the resolution and getting people's feedback.

And I have to say that I live in hope, but I try to be a realist. And so I recognize that I was trying to get something done at the larger church level. Getting people to agree the first time through - not always going to happen. So I was cautiously optimistic. And so the goal was, the whole point is to have a conversation, to elevate this so people know that it's happening, and so that they can keep an eye on it in their communities and have a discussion about it. But if it doesn't get approved at General Convention, that's fine. I've started a conversation. That's great.

Folks really took to it. I think folks really understood that this is a problem in our communities, that we need our Church to stand up and say that we value inclusivity. We value stories. We want people to be able to see themselves in their community. The thing about materials in libraries is that it allows young people, in particular, to see themselves.

Invariably, you always get the books about dogs and cats and lovely animals and people from a majority community. Where are the stories of little Black girls who do science? Those books didn't exist when I was a kid. I was really good at science. According to the books in my library, I didn't exist. And so there's the importance of young people being able to see themselves in their community.

And young people, they're very wise, and they hear these conversations. And they also notice what stories are being challenged, what communities are considered too dangerous, whose stories are being restricted. and that impacts their sense of self: what’s wrong with me?

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

Right. I think about my kids, who have two dads. They don't need you to talk about it all the time; but occasionally coming across a story where that is normalized - and again, no one's trying to promote this. It's just like, oh, that's my story. Okay, great. I've read a story about me. I'm part of this broader conversation. You know, that is not subverting anyone else's experience. It just is recognizing lots of different people are coming together in school settings. And isn't it great if everybody has a sense that, oh, yeah, I belong here. The stories matter. I just think it's so important. And again, it's so frustrating to me that some people are so upset about that, that they want to take away those stories. It's a tragedy.

But the good part of your story so far, and I want to get to the punchline, is that when you introduce this, first to your fellow Black Episcopalian group, they, you know, lots of iterations of resolutions, but eventually you got there - and then you brought it to the General Convention and so expanded the story. And people, once you raised it, they were like, aha! Oh, I see why this is a church issue. We started with like, is this a church issue? And then it sounds like people really were, like, I get this completely, why this is a church issue.

QIANA JOHNSON:

Yeah, and I think it was just even having the conversation in a church space, it helps people to talk about it; that it's not that separation of the secular life and the religious life. Those frequently blend together and bleed into each other. And so having this air quotes “secular” conversation in a church space gives people the permission to think about it as a as a church issue, that if we want to create the kingdom of God here on Earth, what do we have to do to do that?

We have to work within the systems we have. And that means, you know, school boards and things like this. If I want a diverse, inclusive community, how do I make that happen? And what are the things that I need to advocate - sometimes against? Like, I don't like book bans. So how do I talk about that in my secular community, with the understanding that I'm coming at this from a faith-based… That this is not just a intellectual librarian issue of why I'm opposed to book bans; this is a faith-based reason that I am opposed to book bans, because it's not inclusive to the entirety of my community.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

And so was there a vote on this? Was there actually a vote?

QIANA JOHNSON:

There's not a vote. It's logistics of church governance. I have learned so much about church governance.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

So how does it become a resolution?

QIANA JOHNSON:

So there's the House of Deputies and then the House of Bishops. And so at the end of the day, it was supported by the House of Deputies and supported by the House of Bishops, which means that it was approved by the General Council. So it's in the resolutions, it's an approved resolution, it's part of the General Convention of 2024.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

That's so spectacular. Congratulations. I think we have to take a moment. Yay. I mean, this is huge. I just am so grateful for that story, and grateful for you. This is a major accomplishment. And knowing how hard it is to get anything done in the Church, to get something through from idea to actual adoption in just a couple years is crazy. So congratulations.

And I think it's exactly what I'm hoping will happen more and more, is that people will recognize: this is not something over there. And the question of what is church and what is not, I just think we have to recognize our community, whatever happens, not just other Christians, just our broader community, is our responsibility. And so I'm delighted.

And one of the things that we're working on at Interfaith Alliance is really rallying religious communities to say: take this seriously. We can't force resolutions like the one you did, which I think is actually what needs to really happen. But we can raise awareness among faith communities: this is something that you should be thinking about in terms of religious freedom, in terms of your own community commitments.

We were very glad to partner with Unite Against Book Bans on something called “Banned Books, Banned Beliefs,” which you can also find both on Unite Against Book Bans website as well as the Interfaith Alliance website. So this is a movement. And I think that once we really wake up - and I know that there are Jewish folks working on this, Muslim, there are people across the religious spectrum who are beginning to recognize the threat of book bans. And so It's such a good moment, and I just really appreciate all the work that you did.

QIANA JOHNSON: Thanks. And if there's something I can highlight about the resolution itself, with that conversation about, is this a church issue? Does the Church have a leg to stand on here? Yes, there's the part of the resolution that urges the Church to work and to advocate for the inclusion of materials in schools and libraries. But there's also the call to itself. And so part of that resolution is, it's calling church libraries to include the stories of LGBTQ and BIPOC Christians; the recognition that we need to work on this internally amongst ourselves, as well, and to make sure that we curate and preserve those stories. And so, again, it's not just we're telling other people to do things. We're calling ourselves to do it, as well.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

Honestly, sometimes church libraries feel like, oh, look at that musty room that no one, really, is paying attention to. But more and more - and this is Episcopal churches, but also I have friends in all kinds of other churches where it's like, They're having “Banned Book Brunch,” you know, breakfast within the church. And they're saying, okay, if these are being taken off the shelves, forced off the shelves in local libraries, we're going to stock them. It doesn't mean we're not going to do advocacy out in the community, but we are going to recognize these are valuable to us, and we want to make them accessible to people. It's a type of evangelism. It's like saying, hey, this is the kind of community where all are welcome, where the beloved community is being actualized today, including all the stories. I love that there's internal work, as well.

And it's great, frankly, for authors. They are also targets in all of this, authors of books. Black authors, LGBTQ authors. Also, one of the findings is, among religious books, those that center Muslim characters, those that center Jewish characters, are often targeted. So there's authors who are also being targeted here. And buying books by them, putting them in your… It's a great action.

So I do want to turn to the Freedom to Read Day of Action. Can you talk a little bit about what that is, and why we should all be celebrating it and doing something on it?

QIANA JOHNSON:

It's an opportunity for communities to host events, but also, if there's not an event in your community, it's an opportunity for us, as individuals, to take a few moments to learn about what we as an individual can do in our community to support the freedom to read, to support the continued access to information. And so there are talking points that you can learn about, ways that you can interact with our elected officials, but also ways that we can talk to our neighbors. Again, what people don't know is what they don't know, but if we can have conversations about why something is important and why it's important to us as an individual and why we think it's important to our community, it gives us the language that we might not have access to.

Again, I'm a librarian. I do this all the time. I don't expect other people to have that language. And so this Day of Action gives us, collectively, that language that we can use to talk about how we want to make sure that there's that continued freedom of access to information, and freedom of access to books.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

What's the URL that people can go to in order to find out more?

QIANA JOHNSON:

Yes, it's uniteagainstbookbans.org slash day hyphen of hyphen action.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

And I really encourage everyone to take your part and begin to incorporate this, whatever faith community you're a part of or any other civic community that you're a part of, bring up censorship. Bring up the fact that librarians and libraries are being attacked. And if people say, oh, that's not something we do, you have to ask the next question: why not? Why is that not part of all of our responsibilities?

And we're in a moment, I just think it's important to note, where civic spaces are under attack in general. Schools are being undermined. Libraries are being undermined. Basic places where people congregate to learn, to grow, to meet people who are different from themselves. All these places are being - either using money, defunding them, or actively trying to subvert their place in our civic society. And so, recognize that this is a trend and show up for public schools; show up for public libraries; show up for your school teachers and your librarians and recognize that this is a pretty concerted attack against them.

And for those of us who are in a religion, to recognize how important it is that this is not someone else's problem. This is all of our challenge, and it's going to take all of us to make sure that we're showing up.

I am curious, does this affect you at all at Dartmouth? I mean, no one's coming for you at Dartmouth, are they? Or are you getting questions where it's like, well, why are you featuring this material versus that material? I mean, I think that even in the hallowed halls of Academy, people probably are challenging what kind of information is available.

QIANA JOHNSON:

In my ivory tower, it's not happening now. But it's one of those things of, if we're not careful, it will. Because these book challenges started in just school libraries. Then they expanded to public libraries. Then there's a conversation about restricting access in bookstores. So again, I could very safely say: this is not a academic library problem. I'm going to just let the school librarians deal with it. Number one, that's a selfish thing to say; but number two, it's going to get to me eventually if I'm not careful.

And so, again, I'm part of a community, whether that's an academic community, a library community, just a New Hampshire community. It is our collective responsibility to make sure that everyone has access to the information they need to become who they are intended to be in this world. And they need to have access to that information.

And the other thing is, a lot of times folks are like, well, the books that are being challenged are about marginalized communities. I'm not part of a marginalized community. This doesn't really affect me. But again, it's one of those opportunities of, air quote, “safe space” for people to learn about other communities. And in a way that's easy. Depending on where you live in this country, there may not be people who don't look like you. And so how do you learn about other people? You don't have the chance to interact with them at the grocery store. You don't meet them at church. Books are a wonderful place to be able to do that, but you have to have access to the book to be able to learn about others.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

I have to tell you this story. I grew up in Madison, Wisconsin, and, you know, it was not a completely homogeneous community, but it was fairly homogeneous community. And I read James Baldwin, Another Country, when I was 16; just beginning to wonder if I was gay. So there was a gay character who was in a gay love story. It was a difficult love story, but it was a real love story. But also it really introduced me to Black characters in a way that I was aware, at the time, that I was learning. And I was learning about a story of a country. I was learning about a story of individuals whose life was very different from mine. And I have never forgotten. I can literally see myself pulling that book off the shelf and saying, oh, what's this?

And I'm so grateful for that book and for James Baldwin for so many reasons; but also, specifically, for introducing me to a life that wasn't my own, but raised awareness that like, oh, there's a big, rich diversity, and people are having challenges that I know nothing about until I actually read about them. And one of the ways to be introduced to those - maybe one of the most poignant ways to be introduced to those - is through books, is through stories.

QIANA JOHNSON:

And it's one of those things of, yes, we all are on different parts of our journey. And at certain points, some things, just, we're not there yet. But that doesn't mean it should be restricted for everyone else.

Sometimes people are like, oh, this is too mature for my ninth grade student to be in the high school library. It's like, well, there’s seniors there, as well. And also, you don't know that individual student’s lived experience. You don't know what they are wanting to work through, by themselves, with a book, and having that access. And also, trusting people to know when something might not be for them. They may take it off the shelf. They may start, and they’re like, this is past me right now. I'm not able to engage. And I'm going to put it back.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

And I think one of the great things about librarians is that they're so sensitive to that idea, to that conversation. That's part of their training. It's not like they're like, read this book, or else!

QIANA JOHNSON:

Sometimes you're just not there. And that is absolutely okay.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

Rev. Qiana, I think I introduced you without adding the “reverend” before…

QIANA JOHNSON:

And that's okay because it's a stealth reverend.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

It's a stealth reverend, but not on this show. You are definitely a reverend. You know, you're a hero. You're a total hero. And I don't mean that in an inflating way. I just mean that in a very clear, taking the steps that are needed way. And I'm just so grateful for your work and your testimony.

We like to end this show by asking people what gives them hope. And Rev. Qiana Johnson, what gives you hope?

QIANA JOHNSON:

That people care deeply. that people care deeply enough to want to change the world, and that they're willing to have conversations, and they're willing to have hard conversations. And if we extend each other enough grace and compassion to have those conversations, I think we can ultimately create the world we want to see. And I have hope with the people who are willing to wade into the messiness and the hardness to be able to do that. That, yeah, it's not all sunshine and lollipops. It is hard, but the folks who are willing to do that hard work give me hope.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

Rev. Qiana Johnson, thank you so much for joining us on The State of Belief.

QIANA JOHNSON: Thank you so much for having me.

...

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

My guest is the Very Rev. Kim Coleman, president of the Union of Black Episcopalians, which led the charge to raise the issue of book bans and censorship to the denominational level within the Episcopal Church. She's also rector of Trinity Episcopal Church in Arlington, Virginia.

Rev. Kim, welcome to the State of Belief!

KIM COLEMAN:

Thank you so much, Rev. Paul. It's just a delight to be here with you. Just another opportunity for us to allow a broader audience to be aware of important issues, not only that UBE is addressing, but other organizations such as yourself.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

Isn't that wonderful? Thank you so much for being with us. So let me go back. What was the first time that you began to be aware of book bans as something that was happening across the country and and how that made you feel - as an American, but then also as a priest? Take me back to the first time you began to be like, wait, what's going on around here?

KIM COLEMAN:

And so this whole question about book bans has been bubbling up in various communities for a while. But where it really hit home for me and members of the Union of Black Episcopalians was at a conference that we had down in Montgomery, Alabama two years ago, now. And one of the visiting bishops from the UK, as part of her blessing that she offered at the end of the service, came forward and said that her sister's book That's Not My Story, had been banned. And suddenly, what we had experienced from a distance came home.

Because our whole topic was on anti-racism and being able to build up the community of people who are often disenfranchised: Blacks, LGBTQ+, Latinos, Asian Pacific. That's our whole conversation at our conference. So when she ended it by talking a specific example - of a great book, by the way - that was banned without having been read by the person who initiated the banning process, I knew. Then, suddenly, I looked at my email and there's this email from the Rev. Deacon Kiana Johnson. Isn't that amazing?

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

Yeah, that feels meant to be. That is such an important story that you mentioned. Because this is connected to other things. This is not just about banning books. It's about banning stories. It's about erasing history. It's about deciding what counts, what matters. And for people of faith, that's a very dangerous road to go down, because you start erasing stories. And we're all about stories. I mean, if you talk about the Christian faith - any faith, Hindus, all of it is rooted in stories. And if someone decides: this is a story that cannot be shared, and I'm going to decide that for everybody - that is a direct assault on faithful people. And especially, I think, when you bring that together with, for instance, in your case, the Black Episcopalians, it's about erasing Black history, and it's about erasing a really important part of American history that we need to talk about. We need, actually, more stories about it, not less stories.

KIM COLEMAN:

It's so very, very true. I mean, just the reality that suddenly we've got these interests that want to remove and erase part of the story that we worked so hard to unfold, the richness of who we are as a nation and the fullness of the experience, and also to recognize that worldwide. The Episcopal Church for the last nine years, with Presiding Bishop Michael Curry, whose tenure ends on November the 1st, we've been talking about beloved community, establishing beloved community, and recognizing that part of that process is getting the full story.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

Oh, my God. Beloved community. You can't love someone and erase them at the same time. So, walk me down it, because I'm a Christian minister in the American Baptist tradition. And even there, that's fairly non-hierarchical, non-denial... It's kind of a loose affiliation, but it's there. Episcopalians take their church structure seriously. And so getting something to be adopted by the Church is actually a process, and it's good because it allows for deliberation and real reflection. But it doesn't happen, you know, like snap, snap, it's done.

So you get this email from the Rev. Deacon Kiana, and this happens just as you've had this experience in Montgomery. And doesn't that feel like divine providence?

KIM COLEMAN:

It felt that way to me. That's why we acted so quickly upon it, right?

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

Yes. Yes. She told me about this the very first time I met her. I went to a Policy Corps meeting for the American Library Association. And we were talking about this as a religious freedom issue. But what I had not kind of bargained on was the heart issue and the spiritual damage issue of people, of librarians and people and communities that rely on libraries feeling assaulted because books that they needed were being taken off shelves, and librarians that were trying to provide them were being accused of terrible things. And there was real pain in that room. And as a pastor, I'm sure you understand this as well.

This is not just an abstract civic question. This is causing harm. And so I'm sure that both with your civic hat on, but then also as a priest and as someone who cares for a community, you saw this as an opportunity to show up in a particular way on this issue that intersects with so many other issues.

KIM COLEMAN:

Absolutely, absolutely. A little bit of background into the Union of Black Episcopalians, because for 56 years, we've been that voice within the Episcopal Church that has been urging us forward to be a more inclusive, anti-racist, embracing of all people organization and entity, if not body. So that's been our work, and we've discovered that we are more effective when we are united as opposed to being individuals trying to achieve the same outcomes. So for 56 years, we've learned how to work through the systems of the Church, which include from the local congregation, up to the diocesan level, up to our every-three-year General Convention, where the resolutions are passed that then become the agenda for the Church for the next three years.

And before we could get everybody from the local to the diocese to the whole Episcopal Church to give attention to the issue of banning books, we had to be able to get a resolution before a General Convention and get that resolution approved, so it could be worked into the fiber of the Episcopal Church that we condemn censorship. That's the language that the actual resolution used. We condemn censorship.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

So just walk me through it, though, because this goes from you first hearing it from Rev. Kiana Johnson, who's a librarian. Isn't that wonderful? That someone who - again, we all wear multiple hats - but her heart is in both places. and she brought her full heart to this question, and then opened it up to her siblings in the Union of Black Episcopalians, and then you all had to kind of wrestle with it, right? Is this a church issue, or is this something outside of the Church? And how do you decide between those two things? So it seemed like that was part of the conversation.

KIM COLEMAN:

So the Union of Black Episcopalians is not a church. It is an independent nonprofit, so sometimes it's able to identify for the Church, because its members are actively involved in every level of Episcopal cChurch polity. So we're able to identify issues, much like deacons do, identify issues in the world that need to be brought back to the Church, so the Church is then equipped and empowered to take action. So we had this very unique position when it comes to our relationship to the Episcopal Church.

So there was no struggle for us. We saw immediately the justice issues there. We saw the - I'll call it abuse - that our librarians and our library systems were going through, because they were being overwhelmed by requests that they couldn't respond to. And rather than be worn down, they would often have to just take a position that was not one that they wanted to take, which was grant the ban, rather than have to go through the process.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

This is a total strategy.They're overwhelming the system. And that is the strategy. And so you all passed this resolution, or you kind of adopted it, do I have that right?

KIM COLEMAN: 

So let me clarify a little bit, okay? Because what happened is after Kiana and I became in agreement, I had to take it back to the UBE Board of Directors and say, look, would we like to, number one, become a member of Unite Against Book Bans? And number two, what about doing a resolution? And so we had to work it through the system, because there are people that are dedicated to writing such things. The back deputies of the General Convention and leadership. We have a gentleman by the name of Joe McDaniels who has worked for many years to help facilitate the process of getting these important issues before General Convention.

After Kiana did a beautiful job of drafting a resolution that gave us both the history of the issue as well as the power action points, then we had to take it back to our membership, two gatherings, they said stamp of approval, and then we worked through Mr. Joe McDaniels in order to get the resolution put on the calendar for general convention into the committee. It goes to a committee. The committee has to review it and approve it.

The committee looked at it and said, this is great, but it's not strong enough. Now, we're like, OK. And they did the work, and they said it was not strong enough. I liked that. I was delighted. Yeah, and then I was like, have at it. So it was not strong enough. And so they came back with some precise, direct language that called upon the Church to take certain actions and a certain posture in response to bans. And it went before then the floor of the House of Deputies. And then, of course, it has to be agreed to in what we call the House of Bishops. And therefore, it became approved and part of our agenda for the Episcopal Church.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

I think this is really important, and it's something that I and Interfaith Alliance and all across the country have been really shouting is that this is actually a religious issue. This is about affecting our communities. And we have to say it also plainly that a lot of this is because of people using religion as an excuse to ban books, saying, oh, well, this violates my understanding of faith and it makes me uncomfortable. And so it's very hard, I think, if you're a librarian and someone comes at you and says, this is a faith issue; you're attacking my faith by having these books on here - it's very hard for them. Unless other people of faith say, I'm going to step up. And no, you don't speak for religion in this battle; you do not have the religious mantle; you can't say that you represent the religious community, because actually, many many many many many more religious folks disagree with you.

KIM COLEMAN:

Yes, yes, yes. Well, I celebrate and I invite all librarians, especially those coming under assault, to join the Episcopal Church because our baptismal vows that we take and repeat often over the course of the year is that we promise, we bow to respect the dignity of every human being. There's no ifs, ands, or buts there. It's of every human being, okay?

And so when you've got that written into the core foundational documents, and you're willing to fight for those core foundational documents and stand by them, right? We have our disagreements too, but we've got a starting point that is sound. And from that, we're able to celebrate all people and believe God's gospel, Jesus's gospel of love. I mean, we can do these things because of that foundation. It helps us a lot.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

Well, I love, Rev. Coleman, that you use this opportunity to invite and do a little evangelizing. I will say for the record that my husband and I, we attend Episcopal Church and our two two boys are baptized in the Episcopal Church. I'm radically ecumenical, I will say, in my outlook. But we have found, actually, the Episcopal Church actually stands by what it says. And so, you know, it's been a comfortable place for us in this moment.

KIM COLEMAN:

I too, I celebrate, I celebrate all faiths. And that's a core tenet, too, that you have an openness and an acceptance and a love for all people.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

So, you don't have to be Episcopalian to be deserving of that love, not at all.

KIM COLEMAN:

Oh no, that's right, that's right.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

Yeah, it's not an exclusive club. But this is really important. And I guess one of the questions I would love to hear your thoughts on is, what are the tangible ways you would like a local church, a local Episcopal church, to live out this resolution? especially in places where book bannings are happening. What are the tangible opportunities to show up and to create a more beloved community in the local community, especially in places where book bannings are happening?

KIM COLEMAN: 

So for me, this is particularly the place where people stumble, because we do not like to admit that Jesus was involved with politics. And we sometimes like to think that politics are off the agenda for people of faith. Because my first action at the local level is number one, find out who is on your school board. Number two, run for election to your school board. Number three, look at who are… I mean, it's all deeply rooted in that hard fought and won privilege of all people. A couple categories excepted, but of all people to vote, right? Because that's where the more we have representation on these decision-making bodies, the easier it is for the voice to be heard.

And sometimes all it takes is one voice. I mean, people think you’ve got to have an army. No, no, no, no. There's countless, infinite number of stories where it takes just one steadfast voice to penetrate some systems, some thought systems, about what is; and one clear story. Be willing to tell your story. If reading is a value to you and reading all types of materials, if you've learned and grown for that, if you're a parent and you're making those choices for your children - because that's also part of it: let each parent make their own choice for what their child should get, but don't deny anybody else.

So you asked me, what do I want to see happen at that local level? We spend a lot of time on great big national elections like what we're having coming up on November the 5th. But so often we kind of ignore or put a lower value on those that are electing local officials. And for me, that's our first step.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

That's absolutely true. One thing I just learned is that many libraries actually have community boards that are elected positions. And that was actually news to me. I have to say, I didn't pay that much attention to school board issues in New York City. I live in New York City and I was kind of, you know, I'm sure it'll be fine.

And then, my school board - that includes Greenwich Village, which is where Stonewall happened - passed an anti-trans resolution because we weren't paying attention. And all of a sudden it was like, wait a second, who is on our school board? How did this happen?

I'd love to invite, also, the idea that if you're a local religious leader, get to know your library. Get to know your librarian. Let them know that, hey, I'm here for you. I'm very interested in what's going on. It's really easy to walk into a library and say, hey, I'm wearing a collar or I'm a deacon or whatever, and we just want to let you know that we're here for you. If a book ban is happening, let us know.

And I'm talking to libraries at the same time saying, reach out to local Episcopal church, reach out to your local synagogue, your mosque, and say, hey, we want to have an advisory group to help us make sure that we're able. And in that way, you create a base of power that can say, no, we're not going to succumb to all of these book bans.

KIM COLEMAN: 

That's so true. People of faith are called to be proactive, not reactive. And I say that because Jesus told us to go. The beginning of the Christian tradition, Jesus Christ told us to go and make disciples. That means get up and go. We have a custom of waiting till something tragic happens before we awaken, right? And then we're on it, but a bit too late, right?

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

Yeah, yeah. Proactive rather than reactive. I think this is what happened here is that for a while, book bans just sounded to me like, oh, you know, you're banning Harry Potter, whatever. I don't need to worry. it's just silly. It doesn't feel silly at all. But they got activated and they got motivated and they went on the attack. And a little bit, we were on the defensive. We don't have to be on the defensive anymore. We know what's happening.

And so I just really appreciate what you have been a part of, and also the broader Union of Black Episcopalians. It just sounds like such an important group that is raising awareness at the intersection of of issues affecting society and the Church and the broader faith community. So wonderful. I want to end this interview with the question I ask everyone, which is, Rev. Kim Coleman, what gives you hope in these days?

KIM COLEMAN:

Our young people give me hope. They are not laden with some of the issues and concerns. As a matter of fact, that's what has kept them a little bit disconnected from, I'm going to say, the older generation systems of operations, because what we think is such a big issue is not an issue for them.

If you want to get me to do something that I might not be inclined to do, send a young person to ask, right? Because they are now our future. And they're carving out the young voice, the concern for creation care, the concern for peace. Even the concerns over the upcoming election, all of that. The young people, they give me hope and they give me joy. So that's my answer to that.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH:

The Very Rev. Kim Coleman is president of the Union of Black Episcopalians, which took the lead in the entire denomination passing a resolution against book bans.

Rev. Kim, thank you so much for being with us today on the State of Belief.

KIM COLEMAN:

It has been my pleasure, Paul, and I look forward to another opportunity in the future when we can collaborate together to share what I believe is the Good News of the Gospel of Paul.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH: 

Amen.